When Finance Meets Marketing: How New Marketing Leaders Can Build Strong Relationships With CFOs To Drive Company Success (Ep. 27)

As a new marketing leader, how do you ensure your creative vision aligns with the financial health of your company? 

In this episode, hosts Alec Cheung and Barb VanSomeren dive deep into the answer to this question with Darren Ferry, a fractional CFO and former GM, with over 20 years of experience working with startups and scale-ups across North America. 

In this conversation, our marketing and finance experts unpack the critical role of a strong CFO-CMO relationship, and why you should keep this in mind as a new marketing leader, fractional CMO, or marketing team who wants to grow in their career. 

Darren shares his unique career journey, insights into the evolving collaboration between finance and marketing, and how these two departments can work together to drive growth.

You'll learn how to recognize when it’s time to bring in a fractional CFO and the telltale signs your company needs one. Darren dives into the key ingredients for a successful CFO-CMO partnership—communication, transparency, and mutual respect—and why marketing leaders should marry creativity with metrics and financial literacy to thrive in this ever-changing career path.

If you're looking to level up your leadership game, encourage better collaboration with your finance team, and bring a fresh perspective to your marketing role, this episode is for you.

Want to connect with Darren and explore the possibilities of teaming up with him on the Fractional CFO level? 

Connect with him on LinkedIn or explore his website at: www.thethoughtfulcfo.com 

Explore the video content of each podcast episode on YouTube

Want to be a guest on The Marketing Share Podcast? Send us an email with your bio and proposed interview topic to marketingsharepodcast@gmail.com, and our podcast manager will get back to you soon.

Want to connect with Alec and Barb to talk all things marketing and how they can help you leverage the marketing wing of your organization?

Connect with Alec here
Connect with Barb here

Cheers.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Importance of CFO in Marketing
• 6:00 The Role of a Fractional CFO
• 11:00 Building a Strong Relationship between Finance and Marketing
• 17:00 Collaboration and Support between Finance and Marketing
• 25:10 The Implications of Budget Cuts
• 33:48 The Value of Fractional Resources for Companies
• 40:00 Tips for Marketing Professionals in Fractional Roles

Transcript

Alec (00:02.22)
Mr. Darren Ferry, welcome to the marketing show. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, Barb and I are excited to have you here. You are our first CFO on the show. So this is an honor for you. And we're glad to be doing this. We like to bring in all the different perspectives. And one thing we can definitely say is of all the relationships that CMOs should be developing, we often talk about sales. Sales is like a really big relationship.

Darren Farry (00:07.103)
for Amity.

Barb (00:16.314)
Ha

Alec (00:31.98)
I think CFO in the finance is a close second and just as critical. So excited to be getting your perspectives here today.

Barb (00:40.708)
Hey, Darren, good friend of ours from the show, and I've worked with you quite a bit, so that's kind of fun. Tell us a little bit about your career journey, how you got started. I know you haven't just been a CFO, but tell me how that all kind of panned out and then how you became the thoughtful CFO.

Darren Farry (01:02.709)
Sure, yeah, yeah. No, great to be here. So yeah, it started out, I was working for a golf company back in the late 90s when I was working the finance team and I got advice from a couple of people there, which was great advice. And they said, if you're gonna stay in finance, you need to get a designation. They said, you'll be capped out if you don't get a designation. And it wasn't really on my radar after school. I really respected these two individuals. And so I went ahead and got my accounting designation.

2002 was when I finally got it and started in it with a finance team with a company in the hearing industry and worked my way up in that company over the course of 20 years. So I started out at the of the low level and opportunity knocked about three years in when I was actually getting a little bit of a little bit of itchy finger there to get out of there. A position opened up as the director of finance for one of the divisions and I held it for an interim role while I looked for someone else.

And I guess I was doing a good enough job that they gave me the job full time. And then after that, about a year later, another division lost their head of finance. And so we decided that I'd give that one a go as well, you know, in a combination role. And so I was overseeing two divisions, kind of doing different things, but in the same space. And I ended up in that position for about 12 to 14 years, heading the finance team. And it was great because it was,

The first role was really about product development, research and development, and then the marketing of the product, bringing it to market. And the second division was really about in market. It was taking the product and then selling it within Canada, within the Canadian market. So I got to see the whole perspective, which was amazing, great learning experience to see all of that. And later in my tenure in that role, I kind of migrated more towards the Canadian market.

That was a little bit more happening. There was more going on day to day sales on a regular basis. And I started to get into customer facing events and activities, which actually led me to take on a sales role. I ended up leading the sales team for this division for almost a year before I was promoted to the managing director position overseeing the whole division across Canada. So in that role, I was able to, you

Darren Farry (03:24.871)
oversee all of the functions of a company, sales, marketing, tech support, customer service, logistics, finance, and operations. And that was a great learning experience where I got to see how it all goes together and how you've got to bring it all together to make it work. And so when I left that company, I thought I was well positioned to help small and medium sized businesses run their businesses.

both from a financial perspective, but also beyond that because I've kind of sat in that seat overseeing all of those things. And so about a year ago, I started my venture, the Thoughtful CFO, where I'm offering fractional CFO services to small and medium sized businesses where I really can have an impact, including startups that are kind of get off the ground. And so that's been my journey to get where I am and I'm really enjoying this new venture.

Alec (04:14.38)
That's a great background, Darren, especially the part about you having roles outside of finance and then yet now you're back in finance. At least I've not worked with too many CFOs that have sales experience, like actually holding a bag. That's pretty great. I'm sure it gives you a unique vantage point having been on both sides.

Darren Farry (04:37.513)
Yeah, the perspective of being able to empathize with what's going on out there. And just to see, it's one thing to expect certain targets to be met and things like that. It's another to then be on the hook for the team that's out there with customers when they're putting up objections and they're asking questions and they're maybe not buying at the level you'd like them to be. You get a good perspective of it.

Alec (04:59.96)
Hmm. I also like your name. I got to say the thoughtful CFO. That's it's catchy. It's got a good marketing spin to it. know,

Darren Farry (05:08.425)
Well, you know what? This is a story there. I've got to give my wife all the credit because my very literal finance brain, as I was thinking about this, I was looking for all these finance buzzwords and things like that. And she kept bringing me various ones that were in line with what I was looking for. But she actually said, I've got one that I don't think you're going to like, but I thought about it. And so she, she presented it to me and I just sat there and thought for a second. I was like, not at all where I was going, but the reason

Alec (05:12.547)
Yeah?

Darren Farry (05:38.121)
The reason I think she thought it fits and I think it fits is because it's kind of got a double entendre, right? It's like, I think of myself as being innovative and an idea guy and that sort of stuff, so thoughtful that way. And then I think also like, I'm a big culture believer and in my leadership, I'm trying to like empathize with people and help them develop their career. So it's the thoughtful aspect there. And when I pitched it to a few people, know, nobody said, that's not you at all. They were all like, yeah, that kind of fits the bill. So.

It worked out. So I'm really happy with it, but my wife gets all the credit for it.

Alec (06:11.02)
All right, well, so you've officially given her public credit for it because you're saying it on a podcast. So you get some extra bounty points there. mean, look, I even think like, I want to ask you a question about fractional CFO, but like you could have the thoughtful CMO, you could have a thoughtful COO. I mean, there's almost like a brand expansion thing here that you could do. Right? Isn't this pretty good, right, Mark?

Darren Farry (06:15.311)
That's right.

Darren Farry (06:31.965)
Exactly.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Barb (06:37.722)
This is our new team. This is our new team. I love it.

Alec (06:39.982)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, pretty catchy. so talk to us a little bit more about just fractional CFO. I mean, we've had some fractional CMOs on the show. You're our first fractional CFO. Just give us what's your take on like, when does it make sense for a company to utilize a fractional CFO? What are the telltale signs of that?

Darren Farry (06:42.005)
Good to you.

Darren Farry (07:04.317)
Yeah, it's kind of the stage they're at or the things that they need. I get this question a lot. And with startups particularly, I've found when I talk to mentors and incubators that startups tend to wait too long to bring finance people in. It's not the thing that they think they need right away. They need R &D or they need sales or marketing. But the reality is everybody gets into business for the sake of making money.

and trying to generate profit. And so I think it's funny that the first thought is not, need to manage that well, right? I need to make sure the finances are in order. And while I go and generate profit or revenue that I keep as much as I can, but I think many people look at finance and think of it as backwards looking, right? As scorekeeping, compliance, tax, whereas it is those things and those things are important.

But there's a whole forward looking future looking part of finance that I think fractional CFOs can help out with. And it's the creating the future. It's the projecting, you know, your revenues and your sales and your metrics and things like that. So when's the right time? I get this question all the time. When you're starting to make some pretty significant strategic decisions that are going to have financial implications, that's the time to bring in someone, you know, in a role like this because they...

Good ones will have good insight about whether it's the right time to hire on a resource or to engage in a certain commitment or whatever. And if they just save you from making one faux pas, they'll cover their own cost, right? I have seen this where some startups and businesses have signed on to things that maybe were little too early for them and came with a significant cost. And if those things could have been avoided, they could have saved some cash and generated it and use it in a different way that might have been more effective.

So the right time is really when you're starting to make those strategic decisions. The great thing about fractional is it doesn't come at the same cost as hiring a full -time resource, right? So if you can kind of lever that a little bit and be able to afford some portion of it, it can really benefit you in the long run.

Alec (09:06.818)
with it.

Barb (09:15.706)
You know, we have worked together on some very young companies, right? And I think sometimes a founder might get worried like, I don't have my funding yet. Like I can't hire you yet. But really, I have found, and maybe this is your case too, is it the case that you can kind of jump in and jump out? Because everybody needs a pitch deck and everybody needs a performer that makes sense.

And everybody needs a financial direction. So I would think that work needs to be done from the get -go, because when we start a business, we must start thinking about where it's going, right? And so you help with that whole picture.

Darren Farry (09:54.442)
right.

Yeah, you're exactly right there in the startups, right? I mean, you can go and take your pitch deck to investors and tell them about the great idea and the market potential and all those things. But as I've said to some of the startups I've worked with, they're investors. They're looking to make a profit. You've got to show them, demonstrate to them in a couple of slides financially how this company works and gets them a return on their investment. So it's important you've got somebody that's put together some good financials to show.

with the market potential and your great idea, what is possible? What are the revenues for the first couple of years? How do you scale up and how are you going to get there? So to engage a financial professional that can do that, it just gains you credibility with investors, right? That you've got somebody you can leverage in whatever capacity, maybe it is part -time, but that you've got someone on the nut for the finances and you can go to when you're trying to figure out how to scale up.

And also when you're looking to make those strategic decisions that you don't make a bad one, because you've got good advice on is this the right time for it or not. So yeah, it's a little counterintuitive, I guess, because you don't have a lot of money, you're trying to get it. But it helps with credibility, I've found is once you've got some good financials in there for investors and they can see, you've got someone on the team there that I can rely on. If I give you money, that's a big stepping stone for you to actually get the investment.

Barb (11:23.662)
Yeah, you know, I have found too that this is why you have experts in different functional areas, right? So for example, when you have worked on some of my businesses or our businesses on this, you you ask questions beyond finance, you know, how is this product work? Tell me about the product sale. And so I think that again, speaks to your well -roundedness and your total business view, not just the financial, you know, because it is more than a pro forma, especially for

a first startup, you're asking all those questions that probably investors will want to know as well. So I think that provides a really good balance for that owner or CEO.

Darren Farry (12:05.907)
Yeah, so maybe you're like this, I won't name the company. The company that I come from, every year I was engaging in a budgeting process where we needed to go and present our plan for the year. And it was like a battle. Like you had to be prepared, right? You needed to know your numbers, you needed to know the drivers of your business. And very early on in my role when I was attending those annual meetings, I saw some people not prepared and some people prepared.

And I never wanted to be one of those people that was ill prepared to go in front of the executive board and try to answer questions about your local markets business. So it's always about, you know, the numbers have to have the details below them. And so I was very much a bottoms up guy where I wanted to understand the key assumptions that led to the numbers and built up the financial picture. So it's, it's now worked out very well for me, right? When I work with companies now, it's like, we can make assumptions and we can make estimates that will

inform our financials. And if anybody asks questions about it, we can trace it back to go, well, here's why this number is what it is. It's because it's based off of these key assumptions. Let's talk about those assumptions. Do you agree with them? Disagree with them? We can go back and forth, but it shouldn't just be, well, that number is that number because that's what we just decided. There should be some underlying logic to it. And it served me well. And it's kind of how I cancel companies. Like there is a way to build up these financials based off of key assumptions.

And then as you learn new things, you change assumptions, right? You change the numbers, you reflect new information you get maybe from investors. If they give you some insight that you don't have, it's like, good point. Let me update that and see how it impacts our model.

Barb (13:46.66)
Yeah, being part of those budget prep meetings is definitely a good muscle flex for everybody, right? Who's ever needed to defend, you your plan or your spend or both. So let's switch gears for a quick minute. You know, I've had, I've been lucky to have good relationships with CFOs in my relationship, but talk to, you know, the rules of engagement for maybe,

Darren Farry (13:53.064)
Yeah.

Barb (14:14.372)
you know, a new person or how should a CMO or someone in marketing be in lockstep with their CFO? What's the right, you know, blend for that? What do you think? What makes for good relationship?

Darren Farry (14:23.029)
There is the stereotypical adversarial relationship, right? Sales, marketing versus finance. And you see this all the time, like they're working against each other. I'm like you, I feel that I've had good relationships with people that have been in those roles. Certainly after I was in the role, I probably was a little bit more empathetic. But even then, I think you could talk to my former colleagues and they would say that, you know, I kind of work with them.

I think the first thing is respect of each other's areas, right? Like it's not easy to be in the sales and marketing realm. That's where the spotlight is. Everyone's like, the glory and the fame and all that sort of stuff, but that's where the spotlight is. That's where the scrutiny is. And when things aren't going well, they typically go to sales and marketing first. Like why aren't we getting our targets? So you've got to respect each other's positions, right? And what they bring to the table. The other thing is just like good communication and transparency.

I think people in marketing should befriend their finance folks because they can become strong allies for them, right? Oftentimes you're putting together plans or initiatives that you need to get approval on and to have finance, either the CFO or the finance team kind of in lockstep with you as you present it, maybe to the president or CEO, much more likely to get approved and move forward because you've got an endorsement from an outside party that's looking at the numbers.

To say this is the right thing to do. It's responsible. We're not overspending and that sort of stuff So to have good relationships with the finance team They can test you as well that you know a good back and forth to say do you really need that? You know, is that the right way of spending the money? And and that sort of stuff It that also adds to the relationship and I think like the combination of the marketing Creativity and the financial numbers putting that together can become a real powerhouse, right?

as you evaluate the business and how things are going. So to be in alignment, you know, the two head positions, but also the teams can make for a much stronger company if there's not kind of, you never want to be in that tug of war. You're kind of working against each other or causing, feeling like there's a roadblock there. That's not a good place to be. So you do want to kind of, and foster that working together to get the best output from both teams.

Alec (16:49.059)
What would be your advice on how do you kind of befriend finance? What are some things that as a marketer that you would advise or as a finance person that you would advise a marketer to do? Like what is finance interested in? What do they want to hear about?

Darren Farry (17:04.339)
Yeah, I mean, it's like anything I imagine if you go to somebody and say, I could really use your help. Like, you know what I mean? Like everybody loves to like, you know, be the hero sort of thing, right? So, you know, if a marketing person said, I've got this initiative that I'm working on and I could use some help with the metrics of the numbers, you know, here's what we're trying to achieve. What's the best way to evaluate, you know, success? What are the metrics or whatever? So,

probably just going and kind of asking for help saying, I want this to be successful and I want to be responsible with the money that I'm being given. So if you could help me walk through that, I think that's a big way to build some Brownie points, right? But it goes both ways too. I mean, I think finance has to see themselves in the role of supporting marketing, supporting sales, right? I don't believe in this, know, finance, you know.

persona of I hold the purse strings and you come and you ask for money and I might give you something. That's not the case. Finance should see their role to support. How do I make this happen for marketing? Maybe where do we get the money from to make sure this happens for marketing? think that's the way that finance should be seeing the marketing side as well. I think what marketing people could do is they're probably much more in tune with the business, like what actually happens out there and kind of what you're trying to do.

they can educate the finance people as to what the business is all about and what we're trying to do there. Sometimes you have finance people that are in a finance department and they couldn't tell you really what the company does because they do their job and don't really need to know, right? It's like we sell widgets or something, I don't know. But you know, the marketing person could educate the finance person on this is what we're trying to do, this is, you know, what customers say and things like that. And it might enlighten them.

to be able to do a better job in finance, whether that's providing information to their boss or help the company in a different way. So it's definitely a symbiotic relationship. There's opportunities for both sides to kind of help out the other and look for ways to collaborate better.

Alec (18:59.363)
Yeah.

Barb (19:08.808)
I'm sure you've never heard that in the receivable, right? The receivable conversation, right? The sales guy and the receivable conversation. It's a little bit of rub sometimes. But, you know, I mean, in the old days, you know, the marketing person might been afraid of the, you know, CFO, right? But I think what you said is absolutely perfect. You have to see this person as an advocate for you. And,

Darren Farry (19:14.707)
Yeah.

Darren Farry (19:19.986)
all.

Barb (19:36.546)
respectfully on the other side, I would think that for CMOs, you respect them if they understand their ROI is better, right? So some of, I mean, you have to think in terms of investment, right? And return all the time in marketing. And I think marketing shifted more that way for sure. But I would think that that helps the relationship as well.

Darren Farry (19:52.063)
Yeah.

Darren Farry (20:00.927)
I think, yeah, if you're a marketing person and you're talking the language and you're showing fiscal responsibility, like that you care, you know, we're under budget, over budget, you know, if a finance person comes and brings you the monthly report and it says you've overspent and you're like, well, and keep going, that's not gonna win you any points, but it is kind of showing that you're concerned about the fiscal responsibility side of things, that you wanna stay within budget.

I've had both. I've had some people that just thought we were roadblocks and there wasn't a great relationship. And then most of the people that I've had is they've seen us as allies and provided them information and support when they needed it.

Alec (20:41.934)
One small thing that I've always tried to do is it goes more back to the other side of what you said because within finance there's also the kind of the back of the accounting function, right? Which is making sure stuff's recorded, making sure that our financials get out. since I used to be a CPA, so like I kind of know that side of it. But I know one thing that I always try to do is I try to communicate to the finance team about, here's some projected spend or here's stuff that I've already spent.

so that they can know about booking prepaid or undone revenue or stuff like that. And I know that's getting into some language that if you're not an accounting background, you don't know what that means. But just letting them know what you've been spending or what your projected spend is, that can help with when the finance is trying to figure out, gosh, what are my forecast looks like? That can really help them.

Darren Farry (21:16.531)
Yeah.

Darren Farry (21:32.053)
That's a huge thing. If I had someone coming to me saying, hey, heads up, next month's gonna be a high spend month because we've got three events or whatever, that would be great. It's like, because you hate those surprises, right? Suddenly you think you're on budget from a spend and you don't have the budget next month for a massive spike and there's gonna be one. Someone's gonna answer for that and it's probably gonna be both. Marketing, why'd you spend? And finance, what did you know about this, right? So absolutely, that's a great example of.

Alec (21:37.154)
Yeah. Right.

Alec (21:55.298)
Right, right.

Darren Farry (21:58.199)
Being a friend to come and say hey heads up. We might want to get ahead of this one

Alec (22:02.05)
Right. Now, let me ask you another question because I'm going to be kind of just blunt about this. I've had two sort of the both sides of the coin in the finance relationship, right? And sometimes it's at the same company because it just depends on the state of the company. I've had situations where company is under pressure. So now finance is being tasked with figuring out how to cut costs. So

Darren Farry (22:27.892)
Right.

Alec (22:28.536)
So now finance is coming to me more from the standpoint of, I need to understand what you're spending and why. And you know that it's because they're trying to figure out where to trim down. On the flip side of that, I've had the other side, is more like we're not cost cutting and finance is actually willing and able to kind of do what you said earlier, which is, hey, I need some help. I've got a new product launch coming out, but I need some help trying to figure out like costs and forecasts and put together a projection of what that could look like.

And then you can lean on finance for support and for some help on that. It's great when you're in that scenario. It's not so great when you're in the previous one. So there's kind of a duality there that sometimes you got to be aware of what is the bigger picture in the situation so you know how to work that. mean, just give me your reaction to that.

Darren Farry (23:07.551)
Yeah. Yeah.

Darren Farry (23:18.389)
Yeah, you know what a good thing to do in any sort of budgeting planning perspective and I had a VP of R &D who was a master at this. You put your plan, your budget together and then you start to make your, you get your cut list ready. Like always have your cut list ready, right? It's just a way of prioritization and he was always good. If I'm pressed, this is the first thing to go. And if we press further, this is the next thing to go. But what I always appreciated about him, he was like, I need to spell out the implications of these cuts.

And this is always the way to, this is maybe a good thing for marketing folks to know is, it's one thing to be being asked to cut things and you can do it. Be ready to say, just so you know, if we cut that, that means this doesn't happen. And oftentimes you'll get maybe a CEO or vice president going, I think that's very important, right? So spelling out what the cut actually means in terms of activity or return.

is a great thing. And this VP of R &D that I've worked with was fantastic at it. He's like, I'll have to decommit from, he used those words and I loved it. I'll have to decommit from this or decommit from that. And it's great. It's like, I can do it, but just so you know, you're not going to get the same output from my team or my function because we don't have the funds to do it. So yeah, that's maybe a tidbit for marketing folks. If they're pressed, have that cut list ready, but then also have the implications of that cut list.

so that they can spell it out what it actually means.

Barb (24:40.932)
Yeah. Yeah. I would offer to our marketing leaders on that one. Hey man, everybody gets the budget approved at some point. And to your point, have the cuts ready just in case, because sometimes things don't always go according to plan, right? On the business side. The question is, is, you seeing where the business is going? Cause if you're seeing where the business is going, you know that the cut ask is coming your way, right? So, you have to anticipate plus or minus, right? How

Darren Farry (25:05.235)
Yeah.

Barb (25:10.416)
how things change, right?

Darren Farry (25:12.745)
Here's the thing on that. Like I found, talked about this annual process I'd go through that was just like the, know, the ballot or whatever. In my early days, there was almost this commitment between senior leadership and the people that came to get their budget approved. You delivered me the top line and you can use, you can hit your OPEX budget, right? You get that money. I really respected that. I knew that when we left and we went back to our business and we were trying to get things done,

that if we hit our top line, we will be allowed to spend what we had forecast. Later on, kind of the promise kind of didn't always stick, right? So you hit your top line and then maybe the company overall isn't doing what it needs to be. So everybody's got to make a cut. And so then there's much less incentive there to kind of, you know, be honest in the process because you almost want to

add a little bit more because a cut might come despite your best efforts, right? So to the extent that a company can kind of like make a commitment to each leader that's getting a budget approved, like you deliver me what you're telling me you can deliver and you can have this. And if someone else can't, I'm going to take it from them and not a cut. It's not always black and white like that. I understand that, but I did appreciate in my early days knowing that if I, as long as I did what I committed to doing,

I was going to get my share.

Barb (26:42.308)
Yeah, I think that's the best case scenario. But the reality of it is, is, you know, in a world where, you know, global roll -ups are all over the place, you know, they're managing multiple brands and managing, you know, APIC, right. Europe and North America, those things will happen from time to time. Yeah. Okay. Let's shift. Maybe we should shift gears for a second. So let's get back to our little fractional,

Darren Farry (27:01.138)
Yep, yeah, for sure.

Barb (27:10.296)
what do you find, because Alec and I have worked in the fractional space as well, what are you finding some of the pros and cons about being fractional in working with your companies, your clients? just, you know, like if you were preparing people and thinking about what the relationship looks like, what is the pros and cons from your perspective on the actual person and then pros and cons from the company side?

Darren Farry (27:36.041)
Yeah, so for me, know, this fractional venture that I've gone on, there was a number of reasons I went. I'm looking for more flexibility in the kind of second chapter of my career. I appreciate, yeah, right. I appreciate the importance of time, you know, a lot more, wanting to be able to be more flexible with my family and social life and things like that. But on the flip side, you know, the flexibility goes both ways.

Barb (27:50.618)
Me too.

Darren Farry (28:05.557)
I can be like last night, I can be working from 10 to midnight, you know, on things that I need to get done. so it goes both ways. if you, if you like that flexibility, a fractional role or fractional world is, it's good for that. one of the things I was craving as I, as I entered this, because I was in the same industry for so long was variety was working with different companies and different industries and bringing what I know and my expertise to them that maybe they hadn't seen before, particularly with small and medium sized businesses, because they don't.

Alec (28:05.899)
I love you.

Darren Farry (28:35.325)
always have access to all of the opportunities that I've had access to over my career. Like my former company, I got to do so much, learn from so many great people and be exposed to so many models and techniques and tactics that I really want to impart those on the companies I work for now, right? I want to show them what can be done. And so you can go into a small company and look like a hero because of the things you're able to bring them and teach them to do. So.

If that's important to you, like I absolutely think that that's a great side of this. From the company side, like why a fractional person makes sense is this all probably took on a life of its own after the pandemic, right? I'm not sure the fractional world would be where it is if we didn't have that because, you know, go to a company and go, so I'm going to work for you, but I'm not going to be coming to your office and I'm not going to be, they'd look at you crazy like, yeah, you're not going to work for me then. Are you kidding me? It doesn't make any sense.

Now, everyone sees it can work, right? So I can work for a company that's on the West Coast and I can work for a company in the US and get things done and deliver them, right? So the flexibility aspect for companies to be able to hire people with the expertise and resources all over the world, you know, that maybe have a perfect niche that they're looking for, that's fantastic. That's really great. And it goes both ways. Cost, fractional, you know, so the cost is different,

Alec (29:35.544)
Yeah.

Darren Farry (30:02.045)
When I talk to clients, go, look, I have all this experience, all this expertise, and you're not paying full salary to tap into it. So that's awesome because if you do have a particular need that comes up in something, you can reach out to me, you know, within the confines of our, of our arrangement, you can pick my brain on it and you can get the expertise and experience that I've had and I'll kind of give you advice and guidance, but you're not having to pay for me full time all the time, right? So that's a big.

but big bonus for the companies, I think they get access to expertise at a very affordable rate. Yeah, and so again, I think that piece of being able to access different resources from around the globe if you need to and utilize them. The other thing that I've found actually with some clients is there's so much on the go and there's so many things they wanna get done and the people that work for them have day jobs. They have their constant stuff they need to do.

I've been able to plug in and get some of those things that have been on the to -do list for a long time, get them done because I'm an outside resource coming in, not distracted by the day -to -day operations of things, being able to kind of move things forward that really moves the business forward. So if there are some important things a CEO or an owner sees going, I really want to get this in place, but nobody has the time to commit to it. A fractional person coming in and spending three months or whatever it takes to implement it.

Barb (31:08.25)
Mmm.

Darren Farry (31:25.983)
and they will have significant time or cost savings for the company. That's a great opportunity for a company to pull the trigger on a fractional resource.

Alec (31:34.72)
In that example there though, are you talking about where you were just brought in for a particular project? So they've got someone else or another team handling the day -to -day finance responsibilities. Is that what you mean?

Darren Farry (31:45.139)
Right. Yeah, I mean, I found, yeah, I found when I go into companies, sometimes I'm identifying, you know, what your, your accounting system right now is not optimal for, for, for what you're trying to do. You know, it's maybe built up over many, many years and it really needs to be cleaned up. you want to be able to have certain dashboards and metrics and things you want to report on. You're not even capturing the data you need in a certain way to be able to do that. So it could be that.

They need to upgrade their systems, they need to migrate to something else, they just need to kind of clean things up. But their current resources are already busy in the day -to -day stuff. So if you've got someone like me that can come in and go, I'm going to put this program and this project together, and I'm going to figure out what needs to get done. I'm going to come and make a proposal to you of here's the things I think we should do. And then I can roll it out to your team each little bit that if you can get this done in the next couple of weeks, then that allows the next person to do this piece.

And before you know it within three months, it's all been cleaned up. You've used the team, you know, in place to do it, but you've had someone to oversee that process that has the expertise of how to get it there and then the project management to make it happen.

Barb (32:55.63)
Yeah, you know, when I think about that, well, what we're really talking about is project work too. So you can be a fractional person. you know, we've seen several different ways that you can arrange this, right? You can arrange it as I'm going to be a fractional CFO or CMO in a company for a startup period that comes in and out. Once you get funding, you may need go to market strategy and those kinds of things, right? So you kind of come in and out.

But I also see this, and I know people who do advisory work for projects on this. So it's like a project stint that you might be in. And then thirdly, I'll bring in people, right? Because your job is really to overlook and see what the company needs. And from my perspective, it's usually from a CMO perspective, they might need, to your point, an upgraded automation system, right? That's more capable of giving you line of sight.

to a pipeline from lead to sale. And if that's the case, I'll have to bring in somebody that can help us do that expeditious sleeves, right? So they can work a number of ways.

Darren Farry (34:02.137)
Yeah, there's important distinction. think fractional, people don't always understand it. And I've certainly got requests that don't fit with the way that I operate. So for example, about a month ago, someone reached out and said, we have an interim role that we would like you to take on for three months. But what they wanted was me full time for three months. Well, I have clients, right? So some people will operate that way where they'll take on a fractional role.

For a certain time period but it's essentially a full -time role for a fractional period I guess Whereas that doesn't work for me because I have ongoing clients, right? So I need to have I I only have so much capacity So if you're interested in doing this kind of fractional work, you could go one of two ways you go I would you know plug into a company for six months maybe an interim CFO role type thing and You take care of things or work on a project whatever and then move on to my next stint

but you're working kind of full time in that, right? The problem with that, think a little bit is you may have some lulls between your engagements. Whereas what I do is I work consistently with my clients, in a certain portion of hours per week or per month, working on things and it takes kind of as long as it takes to get it done. But I've got a number of clients on the go at one time. So, you can kind of do it a number of ways, like you said.

Barb (35:21.434)
Yeah, it's good to have a perspective on that. So last one, why do you, I think I've seen a lot more fractionals and I'm seeing a lot more flexibles as I call them. I think the whole marketplace is much more attuned and open to this idea of flexing in and out of some of these work situations, right? You know, just the two examples that we just talked about. Why do you think, do you see that a more happening and do you see this trend continuing?

Darren Farry (35:52.179)
Yeah, I do think, I mean, I can't speak to kind of what it looked like before I got in this. I certainly had heard the term a fractional CMO and CFO at the time, but didn't really investigate a whole lot into what that meant or how that worked. Like I said, I think the pandemic has proved and remote work has definitely proved that this can work. I'm curious to see what impact the kind of return to office that's kind of been ongoing for a while is going to have on that.

But I don't think the people that have engaged with a fractional executive, the vast majority would be like, it was a very positive experience, right? We got a lot out of that. And I think so for that sake, it's here to stay because I think they would have great things to say about the people they've worked with and the things they've accomplished in this way. The other thing, I mean, it's all about flexibility, right? To be able to bring someone in to get something done and not have to make a long -term commitment. It's kind of weird.

that it's taken us so long to get here because if you had the opportunity to hire on someone that has the right skillset and everything and have them work for you for a certain time period, but not have to commit to them for like a lifetime or, you know, benefits and compensation and go through if they don't work out, well, then I've got to go through the termination process and stuff. It's almost like it's the best of both worlds. It's also possibly a good way to test someone out. Like I've already been kind of...

floated like well, would you come work for us full -time, you know, and you know, I'm enjoying what I'm doing, right? But it is a way where if you got someone that was a real good resource for you and then you need someone full -time, hey, pitch it to them. Say, look, you've worked out amazingly, much better than we expected. We'd love you on our team full -time. And you know, it could lead to a full -time role. So I think it's here to stay. I think the benefits are just too good for the companies to let this go.

Alec (37:46.274)
That's good to hear. We're in that middle of that work too, so it's promising or it's encouraging to hear that. We're flipping back a little bit here, but maybe let's kind of end with just a general question, kind of going back to just your role as the CFO vis -a -vis the CMO or the marketing function. And especially given the fact that you have had sales experience, you had experience outside of being finance, which I love.

What what general tips or recommendations or any insights would you give to a marketing person, especially maybe like a new market? A lot of our listeners and kind of who a lot of who we target with this podcast are first time marketing leaders or even just a startup like a founder who now finds him or herself responsible for marketing and has never really done marketing. From your vantage points as the CFO, right?

Any tips or just advice that you would give to that marketer?

Darren Farry (38:48.777)
Yeah, Barb, I think you touched on this a little earlier in the conversation where I think marketing has evolved and there's a lot more numbers and metrics and marketing now than I remember there being kind of early in my career, right? And so someone that's new to the marketing space, if they've got the mind for it, particularly if they're kind of numerical or metrics driven or really good at that, marrying the creativity of marketing and

that sort of side with the numerics can make you an invaluable resource. Like I've often felt that I've been lucky that I have the finance side of my brain and then I have been able to have the extroverted personality and the drive for sales and that sort of stuff. I do get a lot of comments on that, like you don't typically see that. And so that's been helpful for me. So a marketing person that...

you know, is really good at the marketing stuff and then also can really pull in the metrics. You can show up extremely well in a company, I think, if you're leading the initiatives and then you're reporting back going, we met all our metrics, you we did this, we did that. And you show that financial literacy combined with that, right? That's going to catapult you because then I think people will see, okay, not only can you get it done on the marketing side and all the activities and initiatives and everything you've got to do over there, which is a ton.

but you're also able to report back to us and say what worked, what didn't, what you changed. So that would be a big one. think I've made the comment before, I think the numbers and the creativity coming together, you know, for a CMO and a CFO working together is powerful, but have that in one person as well is also super powerful. So maybe the lesson for someone who's maybe in marketing, but not numerical or whatever is they may want to bone up on those skills, right? Cause you'll be called upon to use them.

then you'll be expected, right? So if you're really strong at both of those, I think it will serve you well.

Barb (40:52.794)
Perfectly said, perfectly said. Darren, thank you so much for being with us today. It's been a pleasure and always fun to talk with you and hopefully work with you further.

Darren Farry (41:03.603)
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. This was definitely fun and a little different than things I've done in the past, know, more focused on marketing, but hey, this is the way it is and I'm pulled in different directions and I love it. love the variety. So appreciate it.

Barb (41:16.026)
So for people who want to get a hold of you and tap into your expertise, because I think there's going to be quite a few, where should they reach you at?

Darren Farry (41:25.221)
I'm on LinkedIn quite a bit and I do try to post every week to be honest. I like to put up my thoughts and kind of recommendation stuff there so they can find me there. My website is thethoughtfulcfo .com. So they will find kind of my background there, the services I offer and maybe some of the pain points I'm trying to address for people. And yeah, on there they'll find my email address. So if they have any questions or want to reach out or do it on LinkedIn, they can certainly do it. I'd love to hear from them.

Barb (41:54.138)
Great, thanks so much.

Alec (41:55.644)
Thanks, Darren.

Darren Farry (41:55.933)
All right, thank you both. Take care.